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Christian Offline



Posts: 124

Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:12 pm
KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

I still wonder how the missing hours 22-24 of KLANG would have been titled. As Kathinka Pasveer says in the tv film about KLANG there were no sketches about it to find and she guesses that Stockhausen "knew" about his death to come and that he wouldn't finish KLANG. In the same film, Suzanne Stephens says: "We wonder what could have come after PARADIES"?
I have, however, my own theory about the hours 22 to 24. As Paradise is - following the Urantia Book (UB) - the location of God perhaps the titles would have been The Universal Father - The Eternal Son - The Infinite Spirit, the so called "Paradise Trinity" (see the UB papers 1 to 10).

What do you think the titles would be if Stockhausen could have finished KLANG?

Ulrich Offline



Posts: 157

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:38 am
#2 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

Well, it is just playing with thoughts. But, nevertheless: Would he really have chosen God himself as subject? For me one of the religious qualities of LICHT is, that everything is light, all the days are penetrated by the eternal light, but God himself, THE LIGHT, the source and power of all the small lights on earth and in universe, stays in his realm, untouched, invisible, beyond thinking and every possible musical form.

Robin Maconie Offline



Posts: 67

Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:46 am
#3 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

I think he did finish the cycle. 21 is a perfect number 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6; also the seventh term of the Fibonacci series 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21. 21 is the number of songs in Pierrot Lunaire by Schoenberg, and the number of moments in the original version of MOMENTE. The "missing" three hours are like three dots at the end of a sentence ... It is a witty way to say goodbye.

kathinka Offline



Posts: 5

Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:12 am
#4 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

That is a beautiful thought, and it fits to Stockhausens humor also.... Thanks!

Christian Offline



Posts: 124

Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:30 pm
#5 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

I like Robin Maconie's explanation, too... and not to forget that 21 stand's for Jesus' Birthday (21st August according the Urantia Book) and that 21 is the half of 42 which, as we all know, is the answer to “life, the universe and everything” (according to the Hitchhiker's Guide through the Galaxy")... :-)

Adorján Offline



Posts: 57

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:53 pm
#6 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

The Fibonacci numbers were already mentioned in this context by Kathinka Pasveer in her introductory Interview for the première of HOFFNUNG on August 31, 2008. Please see the old Stockhausen site where this interview is given in a transcription. She said according to the transcription: „There are no concrete sketches for the missing hours...“. But this is not all she said. I was in the audience and I remember well that there was an additional short remark by Kathinka that there ARE some sketches for the hours 22-24 BUT nothing concrete. This remark obviously was cut from the published transcription. I don't know why. It might have been a spontaneous error by Kathinka saying this in an interview situation but this would be very untypical for her. Or the sketches might be too preliminary ones. It would be interesting, nevertheless, to know what these sketches said.

Jerry Offline



Posts: 146

Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:45 am
#7 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

Perhaps there is some confusion about the KLANG sketches. There are in fact tentative sketches for several works that were not realised. A number of these (more than three) were exhibited at the courses in 2010 or 2011. I remember one was for a large number of horns (nine?) and the number of instruments was to have corresponded to the number of its hour. Another was for an ensemble of singers. However, all of these were rejected ideas for specific earlier hours; none could possibly have been for hours 22 to 24. Perhaps these are the sketches Kathinka referred to in the part of the discussion Adorján remembers?

James Offline




Posts: 72

Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:37 am
#8 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

I really like Robin's thought too. Beautifully put.

Thankfully, Stockhausen was so prolific and left so much great stuff behind!

Christian Offline



Posts: 124

Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:30 pm
#9 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

But I want to back to the question "What could have come after PARADIES?" If Stockhausen had lived longer he certainly would have finished KLANG, that's what Kathinka says in the tv film, too. I cannot imagine that he would have stopped at the 21st hour.
I already mentioned what my theory is. But perhaps he would have chosen "non-Urantian" titles, for instance one of the words used in 24 TÜRIN?

Jerry Offline



Posts: 146

Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:50 am
#10 RE: KLANG hours 22 to 24 reply

Ah! Well, he already did use some of those titles from Türin (some also found in Stockhausen's two sets of 24 aphorisms, and in volume 13 part 5 of Hazrat Inayat Khan's Sufi Message) in the trios of Hours 6 to 12, so it seems to me unlikely that he would "fill up" the remaining three hours with more of those titles. Why might he not have chosen (as I have suggested in my article in PNM 50, amongst other places) to regard Hours 22 to 24 as the first part of a segment continuing through Hours 1, 2, 3, and 4? If that were to have been his choice, and as a result the division of the day ended up being segmented into a 7:8:9 structure, it would be logical for both the titles and compositional principles to return to something more closely resembling those found in the first works composed for the cycle. Leopoldo Siano may have expressed some opinions about this in his dissertation on KLANG, which ought to be appearing in print very soon. He has had access to all of the sketches, and would be in a better position to know things like this than anyone except Kathinka, Suzanne, and Antonio.

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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