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albanewmusic Offline



Posts: 6

Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:23 pm
#11 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

That is a great link Ian. Hope to see you in Basel!

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 199

Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:02 am
#12 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

I hope so! I will be there for both performances. You can recognise me by long unkempt hair and a tattoo of the symbol from MITTWOCH Aus LICHT on my arm!

Thatfabulousalien Offline




Posts: 7

Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:39 am
#13 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

Hi

The Licht formula really interests me, much like the Mantra formula.
I'm wondering if there is any recordings or midi's of the super-formula?
I'm aware of it being nearly directly embedded in Klavierstucke XIV but what I really want is to hear the formula in its natural form.

Thanks for any replies

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 199

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:02 pm
#14 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

Hi and welcome to the forum!

I know of no recording of the bare Superformula, but the closest to it being performed as is, as far as I'm aware, with each layer performed in full and synchronous with the other layers, is in the final round of the Space Sextet at the end of MICHAELION, the final scene of MITTWOCH aus LICHT. The music of that piece is also the basis of the separate piece BASSETSU TRIO, where you similarly hear the full Superformula. But even in these examples there is other music going on as well. I do not know of anywhere where it has been performed solely on its own.

Best wishes,
Ian

uatu Offline




Posts: 205

Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:58 pm
#15 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

For many years I didn't feel it necessary to get into the narrative elements of LICHT, since I always admired KS' skill at composition more than his actual staging ideas. However lately I am getting more into that aspect, and realized a funny thing... LICHT is a cycle and therefore after Michael and Eve marry in Sunday from Light, the cycle theoretically repeats, continuing on with Thursday. One could say that the Michael of Thursday is the son of Michael and Eve from the previous cycle's Sunday. HOWEVER - this would make Eva and Lucimon into "old" Eve and Michael! This is really fantastic, as it ties in perfectly with the classic "hero later becomes bitter villain" trope, as most recently seen in The Last Jedi, where Luke has become embittered and dogma-bound.

Seriously, a Star Wars-themed mounting of LICHT would make beaucoup bucks and instantly make headlines.

- Ed Chang
- Stockhausen - Sounds in Space: Analysis, explanation and personal impressions of the works of the avant-garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen.
- http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 199

Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:08 pm
#16 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

The whole issue of the narrative of LICHT, and how this might be read over the seven days and how they might be ordered is, for me, one of endless intrigue and fascination. As I have mentioned a few times, there are 5,040 different possible orderings of the seven operas of LICHT! But some do seem to make more sense (or at least more obvious sense) than others. To follow them in the order they were composed is certainly one of these, although I have also always had sympathy for the thought that the real end of the cycle comes in MITTWOCH, and I rather liked Suzee's comment, of course partly in jest, that maybe Stockhausen was controlling things from the Beyond when it ultimately unfolded that MITTWOCH was the last of the operas to be premiered. The thought that the real resolution comes in that exquisite union of Michael, Eve, and Lucifer at the end of MICHAELION is pretty hard to resist.

But, more recently, I have also had enormous sympathy for the argument, put very strongly by Rudolf Frisius, that the Monday-to-Sunday order makes the most sense because that is the order of the Superformula. Of course, he is arguing that as a musicologist rather than as a dramaturge. Nonetheless, when you take that approach, plus respecting Stockhausen's view (echoed by you, Ed) that it is a cycle that repeats over and over, then, for me, a few rather wonderful things emerge. First, there comes a hint that those seven Heinzelmännchen and seven hybrids born in Act One of MONTAG are (to read the narrative more literally than Stockhausen would ever have intended it) the children of Michael and Eve's union on SONNTAG - and why are they so imperfect? Because Lucifer was not part of their creation! No wonder he is disgusted with them! But in the Second Act, the seven children of the ZWEITGEBURT are, as I see it, born of all three: because the music of KLAVIERSTÜCK XIV, where Eve is impregnated, is the music of all three formulas: these more perfect children capture what is celebrated at the end of MITTWOCH - the product of the union of all three.

The other thing I love about following the operas through from Monday to Sunday is then that beautiful union of all three in MICHAELION really is just part of the eternal process of the days, rather than a final destiny. After that union (and remember - at the very end of the opera, after they sing the Superformula and that beautiful 'HU', the singers all disperse into space, no longer singing in sync - the union has come and gone in an instant), then the next opera is DONNERSTAG where the three of them are on Earth, a family, but one living dysfunctionally and in trauma. I find that rather beautiful despite its initial sense of futility: the thought that life is an endless cycle of resolution and conflict. The trauma of DONNERSTAG seems somehow not so fatalistic, when we know where it has come from, and to where it will ultimately return. I am reminded here of the famous myth of Sisyphus, pushing the rock up the mountain for eternity, only to have it roll back down to the bottom again as soon as he has got it to the top. It was Albert Camus who noted that Sisyphus should be happy, because meaning is not found in reaching final goals,because there are none, but rather in the search for them or, as he put it, 'the struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart'.

And just one more thought. Some months ago I spent a whole week listening to each opera of LICHT, complete, with the scores, on their named days, starting with MONTAG and finishing with SONNTAG. But then, the day after, I listened again to MONTAGS-GRUSS, and I have to say that that bit was, for me, the most powerful of all: that moment where, after all that massive cosmic journey of the seven days before, I was again in those watery amniotic depths, ready for it all to regenerate again!

Jerry Offline



Posts: 173

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:25 am
#17 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

Your remark, Ian, about listening to the Montags Gruss right after finishing Sonntag reminds me that, regarding the musical continuity of the cycle, one thing I have long meant to do but somehow never have gotten around to is to listen to the end of each opera immediately followed by the beginning of the next one—in weekday order, of course, and without the Farewells added "outside of the formula" to all but Dienstag and Samstag, and the Greetings similarly added "outside the formula" to all but Sonntag and Dienstag. I am curious to find out whether I can easily hear the musical connections at these points and, if not, why not. Similarly, it would be interesting to evaluate the transitions between the Farewell of each opera and the Greeting of the next, though I would not necessarily expect an aural connection, as I might between the formula-structured points of articulation.

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 199

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:40 am
#18 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

Yes, Jerry - that would be an intriguing thing to do: and a venture no doubt aided when armed with an awareness of how the formulas have influenced the composition of each of the endings and beginnings, so you are at least conscious of what to be listening for: with so many different approaches to drawing on the Superformula from scene (or Act) to scene (or Act) it can be easy to lose the strands of the Superformula's overall influence on the structure - this was something I was less aware of in a concentrated 'listen-through' than I expected to be, although obviously the overall musical connectedness of everything was still, for me, very potent.

uatu Offline




Posts: 205

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:33 pm
#19 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

I'm curious to know why KS wrote the LICHT operas in the order that he did. The super-formula was completed in 1978 so he theoretically could have. Following on that, why did he assign the days of the week starting from Monday and ending on Sunday? Is that a European calendar thing?

BTW I do find the other sequences of listening to LICHT a fascinating prospect, these are interesting suggestions and something I'll try one day. Listening in order of composition has a more resonant meaning for me since that is the way I heard them the first time and so there's that.

- Ed Chang
- Stockhausen - Sounds in Space: Analysis, explanation and personal impressions of the works of the avant-garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen.
- http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/

uatu Offline




Posts: 205

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:28 pm
#20 RE: LICHT - LIGHT reply

Returning briefly to my fascination with Michael becoming Lucifer in his "2nd cycle" (following order of composition), Stockhausen provides the new Lucifer an "out" in Saturday from Light. In Scene 2 (Kathinka's Chant), the ending includes a "scream", which Stockhausen says
"Is the SCREAM the release for reincarnation, for eternal extinction,
or for entrance into the clear LIGHT?
That will be decided individually by each deceased soul."

This is where Michael as Lucifer can redeem himself and escape the cycle, going "into the Light".
I think that is absolutely beautiful that KS gives even Lucifer a chance at redemption...
Of course, on an initial cycle this scream apparently signifies reincarnation, but there IS an exit ramp. Happy ending for all.

Now, ANOTHER idea! Lucifer is not present in the Sunday opera, where Michael and Eve marry. Where is he? Stockhausen never wrote Lucifer's "prison scene" (which doesn't even make sense considering the collaborative spirit in the preceding Wednesday from Light). One could propose that Lucifer is ALREADY in Scene 1 of Saturday from Light, Lucifer's Dream. He then dies and goes into the LIGHT.

Jeez, I can see how people can really get into the non-musical aspects of LICHT. Fun stuff.

- Ed Chang
- Stockhausen - Sounds in Space: Analysis, explanation and personal impressions of the works of the avant-garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen.
- http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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