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DonSolare Offline




Posts: 9

Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:38 pm
ZYKLUS reply

Dear all - I am writing about types of new music theater. One of the categories I -say- invented is "immanent teatrality". Meant are pieces of music that inevitably have a theatrical aspect, as a consequence of musical needs (even if it not, technically speaking, "Musiktheater").

So I asked Kathinka (on facebook) whether ZYKLUS might be considered "Musiktheater". I think that I may paste here your answer, Kathinka, since it was public:

Zitat
"No, it is not Musiktheater but it has theatrical aspect as all works of Stockhausen. The set-up of the instrument makes movements necessary. But if you would classify this as musiktheater, then percussionist would start to make a show and start wearing strange costumes and make a fuss with lighting etc. So please no "Schubladen" !"



So this seems to confirm my idea, right? The idea that ZYKLUS was ("zwar") not conceived as music theatre BUT has unavoidable visual elements, and as such you might talk about "immanent teatrality" here.

Please do correct me if my approach is wrong.
Warmly
Juan María

Robin Maconie Offline



Posts: 67

Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:49 pm
#2 RE: ZYKLUS reply

The theater of ZYKLUS is in the relations of instrumental sounds. In KONTAKTE the tape part makes connections directly audible between different materials (wood, metal, skin) and instrumental types. I recommend performing in black against a black background, under a high spotlight, with white hands and the blank white face of a Marcel Marceau. Let the movement of your hands provide the theater, as the soloists‘ hands in INORI.

DonSolare Offline




Posts: 9

Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:05 pm
#3 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Dear Mr Maconie,
do you recommend performing ZYKLUS or KONTAKTE "in black against a black background, under a high spotlight, with white hands and the blank white face of a Marcel Marceau." ? Or both?
Thanks!
Juan María

Adorján Offline



Posts: 57

Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:15 pm
#4 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Maybe you are interested in the article by Martin Zenck: Das sichtbare und das unsichtbare Theater, printed in the book edited by Hans-Klaus Jungheinrich: Das Gedächtnis der Struktur: Der Komponist Pierre Boulez. Mainz: Schott, 2010.
The article contains subtle thoughts about the three genres: theatrical genre - semi-scenic genre - „theatre invisible“.

Robin Maconie Offline



Posts: 67

Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:44 pm
#5 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Both. Black costume, white face, black drapes on stage, under a spotlight.

DonSolare Offline




Posts: 9

Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:21 am
#6 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Mr Adorján,
yes, a good tip. Thank you! - Juan

ludovicus Offline



Posts: 6

Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:08 pm
#7 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Ludovicus

As a simple soul I described the three aspects of 'music 'n' movement/acting' thus. (a) MUSIC theatre e.g Birtwistle's 'Down by the Greenwood Side' where the characters run, St.George fights the dragon etc, need not be seen for the action to be understood and the music remembered: (b)music THEATRE such as Birtwistle's Bow Down and Max Davies' Blind Man's Buff which have to be seen to 'appreciate' the music: (c) MUSIC THEATRE where the two aspects are indivisible - a trend started by one Monteverdi, I think.

I would cheekily like to make a rule here which is also a challenge. Charles Ogden's Basic English claims that most texts can be written using just 850 words (apart from 'professional words used in the sciences etc) The book is on line. If your multi-syllabic words derived from Latin (a language I love but resist neologisms) prove stubborn, think in Anglo-Saxon e.g. for 'personality' think 'selfness'. I can then pass on some of the things the writers in this forum have written and try to tell members of the Stock Soc what is being said. I think Stockhausen must have read Ogden as well as Uranting (:-.

Ulrich Offline



Posts: 151

Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am
#8 RE: ZYKLUS reply

But, Ludovicus, as a non native English speaker I am glad when any English word at all comes to my mind; cannot care additionally about Basic English.... Sorry!

DonSolare Offline




Posts: 9

Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:57 am
#9 RE: ZYKLUS reply

I would be extremely happy to know 850 words of any existing language. At least ten - or 850 languages, for symmetry's sake.
But for some reason, I can't.
Imagine the doors that this could open!
(but I try to stick to ZYKLUS hic et nunc).
have a nice day - JMS

ludovicus Offline



Posts: 6

Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:03 am
#10 RE: ZYKLUS reply

Ludovicus

"immanent teatrality".I'm sorry to say this but I have to. The minute I saw the question, my heart sank. The Stockhausen question bandwagon is exponential. And this was a very silly question [one of many already asked since PP 11 at least and will no doubt throw up tens if not hundreds more in the future]showing no understanding of the work or Stockhausen's intentions (which was to be acknowledged - that word again - as the composer of a piece of music without writing it and getting paid for doing so).

The coining of the phrase led me to mention Ogden and basic English and the jocular idea was to suggest that like the little boy of legend who put his finger in the hole of a Dutch dyke and stopped the country being flooded, that perhaps my sarcastic suggestion may be seen as the written equivalent of such and halt the inevitable coining of equally spurious phrases in the future. Perhaps Thomas could set up a competition. What about the "female vocalisation of percussive influences in the first act of Donnerstag" with a prize of two or three euros for starters. And "inherent perenniality in the composition of Lucifer's Dance" I am just sad that people I respect saw fit to comment: and that includes me, but exasperation would out.

'Zyklus for a percussionist' is intended to demonstrate the interpretative skills of the said performer, originally a test piece in a competition, given a modicum of clues BUT FOR THE AUDIENCE IT IS JUST ANOTHER SHORT PERCUSSION WORK IN AN EVENING CONCERT DEVOTED TO PERCUSSION WORKS (remember Nexus group?)WHICH BY THEIR VERY NATURE REQUIRE THE GREATER MOVEMENTS OF THE PERFORMER (unless it's a performance of a side-drum study once performed by Evelyn Glennie).

"I would be extremely happy to know 850 words of any existing language" May I suggest you achieve this happiness free on line and take your mind away from the next obtuse question say, about Refrain.

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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