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ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 132

Fri May 15, 2015 1:46 pm
Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

Is someone possibly able to explain to me the role of Page 0 of the 1952/1962 score of Punkte? I have the score of the revision completed in Locust Valley on 17 February 1963, and it commences with a page 0, basically entailing a huge orchestral tutti on f, written in a rhythm that generally moves from crotchets to demisemiquavers and then back (although this isn't uniform across all of the parts). And then Page 1 and, with it point 1, follows, which is also where the recording commences (I'm referring here to the Stockhausen Complete Edition CD 2 recording). So page 0 doesn't seem to be performed, at least not on that recording so I am therefore curious about its role in the score. Robin describes it as an almost Scelsi-like moment in the score.

Joe Offline



Posts: 103

Mon May 18, 2015 12:50 am
#2 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

It's funny to read this post, because it reminds me of Paul Attinello's article about the Punkte score. He spends most of it trying to just figure the convoluted history of the piece out. I haven't looked at this score in a long time. So, I don't have an answer to your question.

Do you have CD 81? There's a nice introduction to the piece by Stockhausen, which makes me wonder if Page 0 is the map for the piece. He talks a lot about the importance of windows being carved out of the texture, and listening to it made me think of your description of the page.

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:40 am
#3 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

I just read the Maconie text you mentioned. It sounds basically like it was just discarded since it didn't "fit". Or maybe he didn't want to copy Ligeti. It certainly looks interesting, and I do hope someone records it as well as the 1952 version.

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 132

Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:08 am
#4 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

I now can't remember what that text from Maconie actually was! But thanks fr clarifying, Ed. One of these days I really must properly examine the history of this piece.

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:32 am
#5 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

My next post is on Punkte, hence my doing the research now. I'm quite getting into it, though at first I couldn't quite hear the things KS was going for. Earlier I started writing "In this work, I don't really hear what KS claims is happening here", but since today I changed it to "After repeated listenings, one can hear...." :)

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:59 pm
#6 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

FYI - a version of Punkte with page 0 is on this CD:

Donaueschinger Musiktage 19501990. Includes the world premiere of the 1962 version of Punkte, by the SWF Symphonie Orchester, Pierre Boulez, cond. Col Legno AU-031800 CD (4 CDs). Staufen im Breisgau: Aurophon, 1990. Also issued on 75 Jahren Donaueshinger Musiktage 19211996. Col Legno WWE 12CD 31889 (12 CDs). [N.p.]: Col Legno Musikproduktion GmbH, 1996.

Listening to it now, I can see why he cut it. It sounds pretty much exactly like 5 bars of the beginning of Inori - doesn't fit with the rest of Punkte.

Joe Offline



Posts: 103

Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:20 am
#7 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

I hear a spiritual similarity between the two recordings, but I wouldn't say that they sound exactly the same.

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:10 pm
#8 RE: Punkte 1952/1962 Page 0 reply

"exactly" was a bit of hyperbole, yes...

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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