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ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 138

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:13 am
LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

I had been wondering for some time if there was anywhere in LICHT where we hear the entire superformula, with all three layers played together in their totality. It occurred to me that the logical place for that to happen would be in the Space Sextet in MICHAELION and, sure enough, there it is. I'm just wondering if this is the only place where this happens in LICHT? I can't think of anywhere but, I have to admit, I hadn't even noticed it in the space sextet until I checked the score - so the fact that I haven't yet noticed it anywhere else certainly doesn't mean that it wouldn't be there. But then, on the other hand, nor can I think of anywhere else that would make as much sense as at the end of MICHAELION. Thanks for any thoughts!

James Offline




Posts: 72

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:25 pm
#2 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

I hear the super-formula everywhere within LICHT .. for a rather straight ahead simple take, if my memory serves me correctly .. Klavierstück XVIII and XIV ..

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:59 pm
#3 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

Right, and of course MITTWOCH FORMEL, which is where Klavierstück XVIII came from.

All 3 ("elaborated") formulas in the form of the 3-layered super-formula can be heard (at reduced tempo with minor variation) in the piece BASSETSU-TRIO from bar 160 to 189 ("Viertes Formel-Trio", track 15 on Stockhausen Edition CD 55). The only time it's played by the "signature" instruments. In one of Suzanne's reports she made kind of a to-do about it (deservedly).

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-brief-guide-to-licht-pt-2-super.html

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 138

Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:44 am
#4 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

I think, if I'm reading the MITTWOCH score correctly, the point you mention where the full superformula comes in to BASSETSU-TRIO is the same point I'm referring to in the Space Sextet in MICHAELION (which is an extension of, or the last section of, BASSETSU-TRIO). So I think we're talking about the same music there. I can see how Klavierstück XIV is built out of the superformula, but the layers are changed about a fair bit, with notes here and there in both Eva's formula and Luzifer's formula swapped around (such as the beginning of Luzifer's formula in Klavierstück XIV, where the repeated G followed by a leap to F# is replaced with a repeated F# and a leap down to G). But, within LICHT, I think that passage in MITTWOCH is still the only one I can find where the super formula is heard with all three layers together, more or less unadulterated (although even here, as you point out, it has some minor variation).

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:50 am
#5 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

Yeah, same material. I was just pointing out the CD track in case anyone reading was interested in where to locate it. Also, right, no other place where it's as unadulterated as there. Personally I would love to hear an exact vocal performance of the super-formula with all the elaborations, but I don't think that happens anywhere. Maybe we can organize a sing-along at Kurten, Ian! I'm actually serious.

ipar1306 Offline



Posts: 138

Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:58 am
#6 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

Now that could be fantastic, Ed - but I imagine it would be VERY difficult to do, especially a cappella, and trying to get all those constant changes of tempo down pat with only a few days' rehearsal. But if it could be done accurately, it would sound sensational!

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:56 pm
#7 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

I'm thinking a "bouncing ball" visual aid?
I personally haven't memorized the super-formula by heart (just a few "melodic" fragments) but being able to sing it from memory would certainly be a great help to picking out the formulas in LICHT (and adding appreciation of it). Also KS purposely composed the super-formula so that it was singable, so that guilts me even more :)

Ulrich Offline



Posts: 157

Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:00 pm
#8 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

I myself think that could be both, exciting and funny, if we would try that in the Kürten courses this year - brilliant idea. But: we should not take it too seriously.
20 years ago, when I still had singing lessons, I tried TIERKREIS with a pianist-friend. When we performed it in a society of friends, I fear the result was a disaster, especially in my part; terribly difficult for a lay person. But nevertheless I learned a lot and till now the melodies are still in my mind as earwigs. On the first Saturday and Sunday night of the courses we could have our first appearance in my introduction of MICHAELs REISE with the complete Michael-formula....

uatu Offline




Posts: 161

Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:20 pm
#9 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

The hardest part is the rhythms, the pitches are not too hard. As long as there is a visual aid (such as a vertical line scrolling through the superformula) I think I could do it. Or at worst, a "conductor" for each formula moving his/her arms up and down as the pitches rise or fall. The only problem is who is going to do all this? :)

Thomas, your introduction will be in German, right? I would love to get an English translation sometime when you have time. Are you doing the talks for every night?

Ulrich Offline



Posts: 157

Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:41 pm
#10 RE: LICHT - how often do we hear the super formula? reply

No, I will do just the introduction for TELEMUSIK and MICHAELs REISE. You know, what it is about, so you will not get much new information. But when it is finished, I can do a summary in English.

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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