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Christian Offline



Posts: 123

Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:40 pm
#31 RE: Urantia Book reply

Joe, your posting could leave the impression as if Michael is not that much higher than Lucifer and Eva. Of course, he has only number 611 121 among all Michaels but for us mortals he is one with God (and that's not the case with Lucifer and Eva):

(28.2) 1:5.5 In the local creations (excepting the personnel of the superuniverses) God has no personal or residential manifestation aside from the Paradise Creator Sons who are the fathers of the inhabited worlds and the sovereigns of the local universes. If the faith of the creature were perfect, he would assuredly know that when he had seen a Creator Son he had seen the Universal Father; in seeking for the Father, he would not ask nor expect to see other than the Son. Mortal man simply cannot see God until he achieves completed spirit transformation and actually attains Paradise.

(66.2) 5:3.6 The Creator or Sovereign Sons who preside over the destinies of the local universes stand in the place of both the Universal Father and the Eternal Son of Paradise. These Universe Sons receive, in the name of the Father, the adoration of worship and give ear to the pleas of their petitioning subjects throughout their respective creations. To the children of a local universe a Michael Son is, to all practical intents and purposes, God. He is the local universe personification of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son. The Infinite Spirit maintains personal contact with the children of these realms through the Universe Spirits, the administrative and creative associates of the Paradise Creator Sons.

Beside of this, there is a whole section (paper 161, section 2) about Jesus'/Michael's divine nature.

You also write that Lucifer "will be annihilated". This is possible, even probable but not sure, if I understand paper 53 in the right way. Or do you know where the UB says that Lucifer will be annihilated for sure? I always like to learn more... ;-)

Joe Offline



Posts: 103

Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:09 am
#32 RE: Urantia Book reply

Those quotations from the UB reinforce my original point. "Mortal man simply cannot see God". Michael of Nebadon is a manifestation of God that is able to create a universe, and bestow himself in human form, just like the Stockhausen's formulas help us conceive of the divine character onstage. I think Thomas has made this point wonderfully. But we cannot confuse the layers of mediation with God himself. As the quote says, "to all practical intents and purposes" Michael of Nebadon is God, until the ascending pilgrim actually sees God for himself in Paradise. He is a proxy.

And Michael of Nebadon is like the Michael of the synoptic Gospels. He never engages in the great "I Am" statements of John's Jesus. He is always pointing past himself to God, saying that his only goal is to do the will of his Father in Heaven. When he disappears repeatedly in the UB, it is to pray and to quiet himself so that he can understand God's will for him. This is such a constant theme throughout the UB.

There is a very elaborate, highly articulated chain of beings from the Eternal Trinity down to the lowly Midwayers and (even lower) Spornagia. The UB takes pains to befuddle people, but if you read it carefully, the distinctions between all these layers are quite clear. There is no sense in which Michael of Nebadon can be considered God, aside from his role as a proxy for ascending Nebadonites (not a word). He is like the training wheels version of God for us as we ascend. Then the scales fall from our eyes, and we see the actual reality of God.

As to the case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer, the UB is unequivocal about this. "No one doubts" that an "annihilation verdict" will be issued (UB 53:9.1).

Christian Offline



Posts: 123

Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:59 pm
#33 RE: Urantia Book reply

Joe, I want to start with the annihilation of Lucifer. As I said: For me it is also probable but not secure. The UB says in paper 53, section 9.1 ..."until the Uversa courts hand down a decision in the matter of Gabriel vs. Lucifer". For me that means that there is not a decision yet.
And at the beginning of paper 54, sect. 5, we read:

(617.1) 54:5.1 Of the many reasons known to me as to why Lucifer and his confederates were not sooner interned or adjudicated, I am permitted to recite the following:

(617.2) 54:5.2 1. Mercy requires that every wrongdoer have sufficient time in which to formulate a deliberate and fully chosen attitude regarding his evil thoughts and sinful acts.

(617.3) 54:5.3 2. Supreme justice is dominated by a Father’s love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.

Couldn't that mean that Lucifer - in case of regretting and recognizing his guilt - could escape annihilation? Perhaps in the last possible second?
You know, today the Catholic Church declared two popes as saints. But the church never declared - neither even Hitler nor Stalin - as being in hell because nobody of us is able to know if they didn't regret in the last moment of their breathing. So I think that the loving and mercyful God waits even for Lucifer to regret.

Now to Michael: meditating your remarks I thought that the UB seems to be even more in the trap of christology than mainstream Christianity: to explain how someone can be Man and God at once. If I see it right the UB seeks to solve this problem by declaring Michael of Nebadon to be divine (but not God). On the other hand, we read in paper 153, sect. 2.11 Jesus saying: "I am all that you say but more. The Father and I are one". It's interesting that the UB compilation by Kelly Elstrott ("The fifth Revelation") has a chapter named "Jesus: Divine and Human" - and not "Jesus: Man and God"!

James Offline




Posts: 72

Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:25 pm
#34 RE: Urantia Book reply

Must state, that reading the over-emphasis on UB here at the forum is giving me a headache, and is discouraging .. I'm hoping the board will move onto much more substantial things in the future.

Christian Offline



Posts: 123

Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:28 pm
#35 RE: Urantia Book reply

James, I'm sorry, but nobody forces you to read things you're not interested in. For that reason there are different threads in this forum. But perhaps there are also people who want to learn more about the UB (without having to read 2097 pages).
I cannot help that only a handful of people is discussing here. I have started some thereads so please do the same to make this forum more interesting.

Joe Offline



Posts: 103

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:50 pm
#36 RE: Urantia Book reply

:) Yes, Lucifer could be redeemed, and the sun might not rise in the morning. Anything is possible. Just above the passage you cite in UB 54, we learn that the first decision was handed down in Gabriel vs. Lucifer, remanding Satan into custody. So, the case is already under way. The section you cited is concerned with the reasons not to immediately annihilate Lucifer and the rest of the rebels. The section justifies the decision to reserve judgment until Michael had completed his bestowals. In addition to the passages you cite, about the possibility of redemption, there are more reasons listed concerned with the precedent immediate annihilation would set. The section concludes by saying that there are, in fact, 36 more reasons for letting Lucifer rebel than the 12 listed in that passage. While the possibility certainly exists that Lucifer might repent and save himself from annihilation, the UB is clear that no one expects this to happen.

Regarding Michael's sovereignty, it's not possible to discount the basic fact that he is not God. One must interpret the rare statements where he equates himself with God in accordance with the other evidence of the book, which takes great pains to distinguish Michael of Nebadon from the Eternal Son and the Eternal Trinity. You will find Michael much more often making statements like the ones he made to Satan and Caligastia Paper 134: “May the will of my Paradise Father prevail, and you, my rebellious son, may the Ancients of Days judge you divinely. I am your Creator-father; I can hardly judge you justly, and my mercy you have already spurned. I commit you to the adjudication of the Judges of a greater universe.”

Note the important distinction: Michael created Satan and Caligastia, but Michael is, in turn, a created being.

James Offline




Posts: 72

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:07 am
#37 RE: Urantia Book reply

Yea .. but this is a Stockhausen forum, not a UB publicity page. Therefore, this obscure junk mythology should be kept to a minimum.

Christian Offline



Posts: 123

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:29 am
#38 RE: Urantia Book reply

I think we should not change cause and effect. Nobody would discuss the UB here if Stockhausen wouldn't have been attached to it. And Boy, he was! Especially when the German translation was published in 2005 he often gave away as a present. And I believe that this newly inflamed enthusiasm for the UB was the reason why the KLANG hours 14 to 20 got Urantian names. Perhaps Leopoldo Siano will tell us more about this link in his dissertation.
I know that many Stockhausen experts find it hard to stand that Stockhausen considered the UB as such an important source for his work. And I also can understand if one thinks the UB is crazy, heretic, muddy, maddening, causing headache etc. - but I cant't help: for the reasons mentioned above in this thread it's the place to discuss it.

Adorján Offline



Posts: 57

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:19 pm
#39 RE: Urantia Book reply

I support Christian´s opinion. But while following the discussion between Joe and him, I must say that a certain focusing is necessary to make the discussion more appropriate.
What does Stockhausen say in LICHT? What does the UB state? What are the differences?
It seems to me quite clear that Stockhausen had a vision of his own. This vision was not created by the UB but influenced by it. One can see this independance very well by the fact that he omitted Adam as a figure due to dramaturgical reasons.

James Offline




Posts: 72

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:37 pm
#40 RE: Urantia Book reply

UB isn't a big part of his work at all .. those all wrapped up in this sort of mythology junk would like to dream otherwise.

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I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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