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ipar1306 Offline

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Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:57 am
UNISICHTBARE CHÖRE: "Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

I was just curious about the origins of the line "Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " in UNSICHTBARE CHÖRE. It seems quite an anomaly in UC, not only because it does not (as far as I know) come from the text sources that are used elsewhere in UC, but also that it is perhaps the most decipherable bit of text used throughout the whole of UC. I can see that the notes themselves follow the tones of the Luzifer nuclear formula. The line first appears when Vater is shot during MONDEVA, and then again just before the Old Woman enters during FESTIVAL. I just wondered if anyone has any knowledge of where the line comes from, and why Stockhausen chose to include it UNSICHTBARE CHÖRE.

Jerry Offline

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Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:39 am
#2 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

I believe you will find the answer to your question in Joe Drew's dissertation. Lisa Quernes's high-school paper, "Kindheitsmotive in den Werken Karlheinz Stockhausens" (Schuljahr 2012/2013), also touches on this song.

ipar1306 Offline

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Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:47 am
#3 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

Thanks Jerry - and thanks Joe, too!I somehow missed Joe's first reference to it in his dissertation, which explains exactly what I asked in terms of its origins. It's still an interesting, and somewhat anomalous, inclusion in UNSICHTBARE CHÖRE I think: but at least now I am clearer on its original source.

Ulrich Offline

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Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:12 pm
#4 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

By chance I am right now again busy with FESTIVAL in my studies and just asked myself: Why does Stockhausen again cite this traditional song in UC in this place? For several reasons this song has a strong meaning: It belongs to the military tradition in Germany; therefore it fits to the father in KINDHEIT. And, in this respect, it also refers to the death of a soldier: the connection to Simon St. Then, in the context of Stockhausen, it has the theme: friendship, an important motive. And then, in respect to the content of KINDHEIT, it is the first song that father tries to teach Michael, and with that he fails; the child replies: Too difficult! He cannot learn it. That is very important, because the general theme of DONNERSTAG is: learning. One could say: Here we meet the luciferian way of teaching that does not work - in contrast to the Eve way. And now this very song again appears in FESTIVAL and interrupts the Hebrew texts of UC with a text of extremely different meaning and origin - in a context, where everybody looks into the sky, to the stars and the reference to the zodiac is about to begin. What does that mean? I have no answer - who has?

ipar1306 Offline

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Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:08 am
#5 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

For me, the recurrence of this part of UC at this point very strongly evokes the feeling of Luzifer's presence and, although I am sure many will disagree with me, it leads me to connect the Old Woman with Luzifer, as if we are to take her as some sort of parody of the mythological Wise Old Woman and perhaps, to some extent, also a parody of Eva. It makes sense to me that Luzifer would challenge the angels to come home, when he knows that they have none.

Joe Offline

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Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:54 pm
#6 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

First of all, Vater's treatment of "Der Gute Kamerad" is clearly Luciferian. The top line in the image is the original melody. The bottom line is the version that appears in Kindheit. It's warped and extended, as if an alchemist is straining with all his might to turn it into something that it's not.

It's quite a brilliant structural tactic for Stockhausen, because it helps UC work in both acts of Donnerstag. In its first occurrence, it grounds us in the terrestrial limitations of the protagonists. In the third act, it is an echo of the locale that has been abandoned. Michael and Eva look back at the constellations (which are purely human constructs) and recall them fondly. The arrival of a folk song at that point is an acoustic reminder that "Aries", "Taurus", et al are the products of limited minds who look up at infinity and can only imagine a sheep or a bull. So too with the old woman and the tank: a reminder of human frailty.

Ulrich Offline

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Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:23 pm
#7 RE: UNISICHTBARE CHÖ"Ich hatt' einem Kameraden ... " reply

Very sophisticated - thank you, Joe! But I still doubt, if that is in the sense of Stockhausen. Sure, the patterns of stars in the zodiak are human constructions. But on the other hand for Stockhausen the zodiak was very meaningful, transports a truth, as we know from TIERKREIS and SIRIUS.
But, for sure, everything we discuss in this respect is very speculative. We simply do not know...

I feel that it could be useful to have a discussion-forum on the music of Stockhausen. There are so many people from all over the world, young and old, learned and eager to get into contact with this musical world: musicologists, composers, musicians, music lovers; people who plan concerts - who write books or have to give lectures and so on. So there should be much stuff, many ideas that we can share. And when we have open questions, there may be people who studied just that and could give a hint or a stimulus. A problem might be the English language, but i feel that is the only possibility that many people who are interested can participate. And we can exercise tolerance to mistakes! Thomas Ulrich
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